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CrystalCraftMC Economy

Discussion in 'Have You Seen...?' started by JesterCopperpot, Jun 15, 2016.

  1. JesterCopperpot

    JesterCopperpot Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2014
    Have You Seen:
    CrystalCraftMC Economy

    What is it?
    The CrystalCraftMC economy is based on a bartering, or trading. This results in the growth of one's wealth. The items and the price varies over time and depends on a series of factors resulting in the exponential growth of an item’s demand.

    For example, on February 29, 2016, the 1.9 Combat Update changed the Minecraft PvP experience. They implemented a timed delay to add more skill to the PvP aspect. They also added different damages on different weapons to help aid the PvP experience. Before the 1.9 update, Golden Apples (or “gapples”), gold farms, Protection IV armor, and fully-enchanted swords were expensive in the CCMC economy. When 1.9 came and changed the mechanics of the game, the price for many of those once-desired goods plummeted.

    How it works
    As I stated before, the CCMC economy runs off a series of trading, buying, and selling done by the community. There is no real way to show the economy “rise and fall” without showing every single trade made in the community. But the economy is still fascinating to me. To fully understand the economy, understanding basic economics may be helpful. Watch this video explaining basic economics and how it is used in modern-day society.



    The CrystalCraftMC economy is similar to the modern-day American stock exchange, as it is always changing. Some items are more valuable than others one day, but then the lower-priced ones may be valued higher the next day. This has to do with the fact that Minecraft is an ever-changing game that brings different aspects into the community. Also, the community is constantly changing, bringing in more people during the summer than in the winter or during holidays. Statistically, the summer would be the highest time for the economy.

    Playing your cards
    To conclude, the economy on CCMC is an ever-changing gamble that will always be maintained by the community. There are many aspects to it, but it is something that will constantly grow and change. It is unique in the sense that the staff members have little control over how the economy performs, and it leaves a lot of control over to the community to shape it and alter depending on their needs, wealth, and other factors.
     
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  2. CrissCrisis

    CrissCrisis Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2014
    This is kinda like when in an update, some blocks get introduced, and people will pay a lot for them, and its just like when a new stock is introduced to the markets for the first time! :D
     
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  3. Wonckay

    Wonckay Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2014
    I would argue that due to the much smaller pool of "supply" and "demand" contributors (players on the server at any given time) the economy short-term is subject to wild fluctuation depending on the combination of individuals, and their disproportionately large impact on the "supply and demand" status of the server at any moment. This will make it difficult to create any kind of prediction model outside of very general trends. If you wanted to get into the nitty-gritty, you could also collect data on the playing times of the major suppliers when you collect sales trade data, because they're definitely related.

    Interestingly, If we had a shops system or forum "marketplace" this wouldn't happen, because all players (including offline ones) would always be "participating" in the server economy and thus the pool would be considerably larger and much more consistent.
     
  4. _stevoism_

    _stevoism_ Web activity of OVER 9000! Staff Member Administrator

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    Dec 23, 2013
    Theres also the blocks that get removed, like with 1.10 you can no longer craft endstone brick. So players like @JesterCopperpot wouldn't be able to craft more and would need to buy off players or go harvest more.
     
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  5. jflory7

    jflory7 A Purple Jukebox Staff Member Founder Sysadmin

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    Dec 4, 2013
    For a while, I've been considering adding this plugin.

    https://github.com/RITcraft/TradingPost
     
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  6. InfiniteCorners

    InfiniteCorners Commander of Blocks Staff Member

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    Mar 29, 2014
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    Jeez, there are a lot of plug-ins being added these days. CCMC is turning from a semi-vanilla MC server to a barely-vanilla server.
     
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  7. Wonckay

    Wonckay Active Member

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    Mar 30, 2014
    The server's already semi-vanilla; I've always taken that to mean that it strives to keep the original vanilla experience but tries to streamline it in ways that make it more playable. Regarding the trading post, I don't see what's so "unvanilla" about it - they're all things you can do in the base game, it just makes them easier. I'm not sure what's so inherently fun about having to wait for a certain player to be online to make a trade that this would take away from that, and it is a way to put more emphasis on server "community" and put more focus on working together.

    I'll agree that from outside perspective, seeing more plugin-commands tends to give a general non-vanilla vibe, but honestly - those first-impression takes are only really important to new players who might be turned off by it. As long as this trading post thing was mostly for the already-established forum-community (so no advertisements on chat) then it wouldn't be a problem.
     
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  8. jflory7

    jflory7 A Purple Jukebox Staff Member Founder Sysadmin

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    It's nothing that modifies the core experience of the game (you can trade items with or without the plugin, it isn't integrating an economy into the server that doesn't already exist). But it was just something I was considering. I would get more opinions first on this before acting on it.

    In a hypothetical situation where I were to add it, it would be based off the existing economy, and people could put objects out for sale on the forums, and have anyone buy it from anywhere, even if you are offline.
     
  9. iDEVLMAN

    iDEVLMAN Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2015
    Interesting concepts so far, as far as the comments go. But personally, I feel like the server is fine as it is now. Having an exp shop, trading and another plugin could drown out one of the 3. For example trading items between players is huge currently and could make the additional plugin irrelevant or not useful.
     
  10. InfiniteCorners

    InfiniteCorners Commander of Blocks Staff Member

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    You do not see what is so "unvanilla" about buying and selling items without physical interaction between players? That's kind of like saying "I don't see what's so 'unvanilla' about the //butcher command. You can kill animals in the game, it just makes it easier." Trading is perhaps the last thing on this server where players still interact with one another. PVP is dead and no one is putting in the time and effort to find raids. In the last several months, with the exception of the one time I got everyone fishing together in spawn, I haven't seen any players on this server unless making some deal over this or that. You claim removing 1 on 1 interaction from trading would somehow "put more emphasis on server community" however it would really only create further alienation between players for the sake of satisfying impatience.
    There was a time when this server was MUCH more vanilla than it currently is. Over the years I have watched this server slip further and further from true vanilla gameplay for no reason other than player laziness. Players can't be bothered to walk to the arena? Let's give them /warps. Players can't be bothered to flip a switch to convert exp to bottles? Let's give them /crystalbanker. Too lazy to walk to your friends' base? Here's /tpahere. A plug-in was even added to make the armory kits easier for staff to create. Now there is a mob arena for people who are too lazy to hunt down mobs- it's been a great many small steps to take us so far from vanilla. While you may not see any problem throwing another plug-in on top of the pile it isn't just "new players who might be turned off by it." I'm not a new player and I hate the idea. Trading is the only forum for players to build trust with one another, with every successful trade reputations are built and relationships established, I don't know why you would want to take away from that.
     
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  11. Bloktopus

    Bloktopus Active Member

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    Mar 30, 2014
    Ah yes, the good old days when such a majestic rant would have to be written in game chat, line by line, an ephemeral monument to the unlaziness of us ancient and true vanilla players who didn't need a "forum" to express our thoughts.
     
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  12. jflory7

    jflory7 A Purple Jukebox Staff Member Founder Sysadmin

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    Dec 4, 2013
    I'll agree with the thoughts on the trading panel plugin, but I want to make it clear that this was something I threw out there and hadn't given much considerable thought yet. I haven't even shared the plugin with staff, let alone even discussed the idea of implementing it, and mentioning it on this forum thread was the first time it's ever come up in a conversation. Seeing the rationale behind implementing this plugin, it's clear that it would have a more negative impact on our server type than it's worth. But to say that many plugins are being added to the server when I drop a link to one plugin I had briefly thought of seems to be more along the lines of a logical fallacy to me.

    In either case, I think it's fine to leave the economy as-is and let it be influenced by in-game, player interactions. Outside of the XP Shops and a world reset every 2-3 years, that's as much control as I want to have on any server economy.

    There's some parts I will agree and disagree with in this statement. For most of these, I cannot attribute player laziness as the reasoning behind their implementation.

    For /warps, sure, I can't disagree with any point you make about those being there than to serve any other purpose than player convenience. They had more of a justification before when the PvP Arena was more frequently used as it kept the rate of PvP up in the arena, but it only makes a clear impact if it's being frequently used. For the shops, using a warp is the most valid decision in my mind because of the issues we had when creating the shops in spawn – you were there for that design decision to when we built it in the End. Outside of the VIP warp for donors (which arguably isn't used a whole lot and doesn't offer any benefits to players), those are the only three warps we grant to players. We don't have any other warp or location that players can instantly teleport to other than their homes. I feel like the quantity of warps is a conservative amount and their uses justify their existence. Until now, I had never heard a complaint raised about them even from the most veteran / vanilla-oriented players. However, if it's something that would be wished for to keep the server semi-vanilla, it wouldn't be difficult to convince me to remove the warp if the community wished for it.

    CrystalBanker is one that I can feel is justified as a valid addition. Unlike the levers that handled conversions (which were just command blocks that utilized another plugin for a fair amount of time), CrystalBanker adds a degree of mathematical precision and calculation which cannot be achieved by the system of chain command blocks. Jacc spent a lot of time working and perfecting the formula used in the plugin specifically to make it accurate to the mechanics of the game, and remove the lossiness of the switches (which was unpreventable in that system). The bottling of XP was always meant to be provided as a service to players even when we had it in the shops, and to say one way is more vanilla than another doesn't make much sense to me, because either implementation is non-vanilla, one just uses specific, calculated code to make the conversion more exact.

    /tpahere is one that I will maintain as semi-vanilla command. We've always had it on the server since Day One, when we had registered ranks (it was /tpa at the time, but same difference either way). There's nothing vanilla about this command, but it's been a command about as long we've been running, and it's a generally accepted command for semi-vanilla servers. Again, this is the first time I've ever heard this complaint raised by anyone in the past three and a half years.

    The plugin that was "added" for giving the monthly kits was not a plugin that was added at all. It's the same plugin that gives new members a set of items when they first join the server. That is something I definitely know we have had since the first day we opened as "CrystalCraft". Sure, we can use command blocks to issue out the kits versus the plugin we already had that had the same functionality, but it mostly came down to the fact that it was difficult to maintain and keep updated on a regular basis in that form after you left staff. Since there were no changes required to the plugins on the server and the change to the configuration of the existing plugin was minor, we agreed that it would be fine, preferred, to go about doing it this way to keep things simple so we could provide this as a service.

    Hands-down, the MobArena is the most un-vanilla thing ever added to the survival server in its history. It's outright a minigame plugin. There is no denying it or refuting it as a non-semi-vanilla plugin. But it adds an entertainment and community value to the server, and since adding it, I feel that its presence has helped bolster activity up this summer. I maintain a degree of separation between writing off the MobArena as "laziness" for finding mobs, as it a source of entertainment and enjoyment. It's a game, not a way to abuse mobs. The mobs don't follow you outside of the arena. You can't get the normal item drops from them that you would get outside of the arena. The entire point of someone making a mob farm is impossible to achieve in the arena because you cannot harvest any of the expected drops that you would receive from any of these mobs by playing. You get other prizes, but they're awarded based on skill and ability to fight through waves of mobs (that does increase in quantity and difficulty based on the number of players playing in a game, making it impossible to "game" the arena by playing with a very large group – in fact, it makes it harder when you're the last one left standing). You could fairly argue about the un-vanilla aspect of the MobArena, but I don't think it's something you write off to player laziness.

    As for the rest of plugins / commands mentioned other than the MobArena, I think claiming that we've lost our way over time is an untrue and also unfair statement. If we claimed to be a vanilla server, it would absolutely be true, but we never have claimed to be that. We've always been a semi-vanilla server, and the presence of the commands and other features on CCMC mentioned are characteristic of our server type.
     
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  13. Wonckay

    Wonckay Active Member

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    Mar 30, 2014
    This isn't a logically coherent argument. Yes, both are cases of plugins making things more convenient - but whereas killing animals is an integral part of the game, you haven't made the case that direct player trading is. The random warp button in spawn makes getting to build zones much easier, but it doesn't inherently "take away from the game". Jflory already talked about how we're not a vanilla server anyways so I won't get into it.

    You need to step outside of your own personal perspective. Just because you don't see players interacting doesn't mean they aren't - lots of people have their friend-groups and use /msg or other forms of communicating. If you want to see players more often, why don't join a team instead of waiting for people to randomly come to spawn? There's no much reason for full serverwide "get-togethers" outside of events (which are always great to have) and PvP (which is dead).

    This really just reads like an old-man rant, and it's pretty weird to be bitter that people don't have to walk as much. Still, do you not realize that location warps and especially /tpahere vastly improve the togetherness of the server? I don't see why you miss the days when it was a huge pain to get to anyone. Maybe because you're not seeing them have to meet up at spawn you think players aren't getting together - but you're wrong. I use it to swing by people and invite them places all the time.

    > Implying the mob arena isn't currently the number one reason non-teamed players get together...

    OR - you could invite people places, have conversations in chat, suggest working together/helping them with something, join/start a team, do the mob arena together, etc.

    Also, trading with someone has absolutely zero effect on how much I trust them. "Reputations are built and relationships established"? Half the time I know full well the guy I'm trading with wouldn't hesitate to raid me if he could, don't kid yourself.
     
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  14. InfiniteCorners

    InfiniteCorners Commander of Blocks Staff Member

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    Mar 29, 2014
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    @jflory7 You don't have to defend your use of plug-ins: you can put whatever you want on here. You seem to have taken my lamentation of the many non-vanilla aspects of this server, which have undeniably been increasing over time, as some sort of personal attack but, as you mentioned, I was involved in the creation/implementation of a number of these things. I was simply responding to @Wonckay 's assertion that adding a trading plug-in wouldn't be non-vanilla followed by a list of some other non-vanilla features that have been added to pander to player laziness and yes, absolutely; it was due to their laziness we added /warps, and the random teleporter, and /tpahere (which was only a donor command until the EULA concerns), and CrystalBanker. The individual merits of any of these plug-ins do nothing to change the fact that we added them because people were too lazy to walk to the arena, too lazy to walk out of spawn, too lazy to journey to meet their friends, and too lazy to spend hours converting hundreds of levels of donor exp into bottles using the levers. That's the simple fact of their addition to player usage and has nothing to do with how I feel about the features. For instance, /tpahere was a donor command ONLY, as was /tpa, for the first year or better that I joined this server. For months we listened to players whine about how hard it was to meet up with their friends but we left it as a private command because it was a donor draw and you believed it to be too non-vanilla to be a public command. It wasn't until the EULA scare when everyone was afraid of getting a DMCA takedown that we reconsidered making it a public command and there was actually a great deal of complaining from vets and donors who didn't want the command to be public and feared endless /tpa spam which is why we chose /tpahere only and that you'd need to actually register on the site to get the command. I argued for this, I defended the position and assured players it wouldn't cause a problem, and it was added with the approval of every staff member. I'm not saying now that it shouldn't have been added, I'm just acknowledging that it serves no function beyond saving players time and energy by letting them skip over a long and tedious process that is an inherit part of vanilla MC. Do I think /tpahere should be removed? No, of course not. Did we add /tpahere as a global command to placate player laziness? Absolutely, 100%, in fact that's the only thing the command does. Right/wrong good/bad these labels are meaningless when objectively examining what IS. Despite our justifications for it: what is has become considerably less vanilla over the years and the primary driving force for the changes has always been player unwillingness to do things the hard way.

    I would say that if trading is not an integral part of the game then there is no need for this post or any discussion of any kind of economy since it wouldn't matter. Trading, like killing mobs, is only as important as you allow it to be. If you chose not to trade then it probably seems to be of little consequence but for someone such as myself, who has accumulated thousands of diamonds from trading alone, it is easy to see what an important role player trades can play in survival.
    As for your half-baked remark about the random position teleporter: I agree that it doesn't do anything except let players be a little lazier, which is why I created it, and it is 100% vanilla. I never mentioned the random teleporter for that reason. Now if it were to be replaced with a /warp random command because players can't be bothered to walk 10 blocks and press a button then it would certainly make my list of unnecessary plug-ins added so people can be lazy.

    It stands to reason that if you are teamed with an individual then you wouldn't require a plug-in to trade with them. Perhaps this is my fault for thinking common sense would apply to this thread and that you would take what I was saying within the context it was being said. Individual pockets of players exist all over the server for various reasons however these pockets, groups, teams or whatever you choose to call them are pretty well insulated from one another. Let's take you and I as an example: It's unrealistic to expect we'll have any interaction with one another. We have our own bases, our own trusted groups, and we do our own thing totally independant of one another. The ONLY thing that would bring interaction between you and I would be if you needed to buy something and I was willing to sell it to you. THAT is why I believe it to be one of the last communal things on this server. We aren't talking about teams, we are talking about trading... if you have to trade with your own teammates to get the things you need then that's just having a bad team.

    /tpahere does nothing to increase the togetherness of the 'server'- they just make it easier for individual teams on the server to get together at their own locations which they intentionally keep separate from the rest of the server so they don't get raided. The argument that location warps encourages togetherness doesn't hold water since if the warp didn't lead anywhere it wouldn't do anything. People go to the pvp arena because there is an arena there, not because a warp is there- they just use the warp so they don't have to walk as far a.k.a. laziness.
    Again it seems I need to remind you that this is a discussion about trading that has spiraled into a discussion about just how non-vanilla the server is becoming. It is not about the ability for 2+ friendly players to get together and do this, that or the other thing but rather an examination of the last situation that will bring non-friendly players together. Additionally I never said that any of these plugins are 'bad' or should be removed, I was simply listing a number of non-vanilla features that have been added to make things easier on players who seem to be allergic to hard work. I don't mind you insulting my stance or questioning my clarity however you seem to miss what it is about entirely and no matter how much you like these non-vanilla features (which, again; I was involved in implementing) doesn't change the fact that they are non-vanilla and were added out of laziness.

    I didn't mean to imply anything however that doesn't seem to have stopped you from inferring it. If you are asking then my answer would be "No, I don't think the mob arena is the number one reason non-teamed players get together, trading is." The number of people who use the mob arena pales in comparison to the number of trades requested every day. As more time passes and the novelty wears off for more players I imagine the mob arena will see about as much use as the pvp arena.

    One last reminder that we are talking specifically about people you aren't teamed with since if you are on a team or work together with an individual then you wouldn't need any additional help from a plug-in to get what you need. Your 'suggestions' are simply day-to-day minecraft play and each is engaged in differently. I will challenge your assertion that trading with someone has 'absolutely zero effect on how much [you] trust them.' The first time a trade goes bad and you decide not to trade with that person again it has effected you. When you get a really good deal and you want to trade with that player again it has effected you. The only way your statement could be true is if you either never trade or you trade indiscriminately with people regardless of their history.


    With all that said, I've wasted more than enough time on this thread. This obviously has nothing to do with trading on the server or the operation of the server's economy so I'm done with it.
     
  15. jflory7

    jflory7 A Purple Jukebox Staff Member Founder Sysadmin

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2013
    Thread cleaned

    I removed the last few posts where thread becomes more of a personal argument than productive discussion about the server. One thing I have always appreciated is that @InfiniteCorners tells it as he sees it, regardless of how sharp or to the point it is. While I do not entirely agree with the points made about the server becoming increasingly non-vanilla, I think Infinite raised many good points and I'll agree with him on some of these.

    Even looking at the same guidelines I linked above (which I don't entirely believe is accurate of a semi-vanilla server), we do not meet them. However, I feel comfortable with the balance between plugins added and the ratio of how this makes us different from if I were to grab a JAR from minecraft.net and start a server. I don't think this discussion was meant to be a "here's what's wrong with the server", but it was balance of observations and discussion made over a period of time.

    For now, though, I think continuing this specific trail of discussion would be best for its own thread, outside of one about the CCMC economy (unless explicitly related to economical factors on the server).
     
  16. Party_Wabbit

    Party_Wabbit Active Member

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    Jan 20, 2016
    you can still craft end stone bricks :/
     
  17. _stevoism_

    _stevoism_ Web activity of OVER 9000! Staff Member Administrator

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    Dec 23, 2013
    Yeah they lied i guess lol
     
  18. GolemClyde

    GolemClyde New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2015
    I agree that something that allows trading with offline players would be nice. It is hard with work, relationships, errands and everyday life to be on when the players who have the materials you need/want are online. I do not however really think we need more plugins to attain this. a forum marketplace could help, but without interaction with a party outside of the two traders it wouldn't help or fix lining up online time. Just make it so when they see you(or vice versa), you both already know you are trading.

    Another way to go would be a designated area where people fill out a form for Mods, are assigned a plot of land in what would be considered the market, and have to build, or pay to have built, their market stall in a similar way that the CC shops are made. A player drops the trade item into a hopper, a dispenser shoots the traded for item out. However this will only really work if the area is set to invulnerable like CC Shops.

    Overall we don't need a plugin, or anything. it is as Infinite Corners said. This would be to cut time. To make things easier.
     
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  19. Luxuries

    Luxuries Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Could I chime in real quick? I prefer player interaction any day, like mentioned above it forms trust and reputation. It turns new players into trust worthy players, that allows them to expand and further delve into the community. Anyways, enough about that. One problem with direct trading is that, when on a small server it becomes difficult to trade for the items you'd like. There are not enough active suppliers on at any one point, and the big collector guys aren't always on either. I've needed huge orders of sand before, then be offered a few stacks.

    This makes me have to go get the items I want through work. Now that's fine, but my point is that trading gets stagnant when fewer players are on. Overall there are many pros and cons to each trading system, the decision will definitely mold the direction the server goes. Trading to me, is a big aspect of survival communities.
     
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  20. GolemClyde

    GolemClyde New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2015
    I do not disagree that player interaction helps grow communities, but in regards to trading with players who are offline, it would be nice to have some way implemented. However there are a lot of pros and cons to every decision with far reaching reactions. It would build the community to start community projects, however this being a raiding griefing server, it seems like it would end in catastrophe.
     

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